I am so delighted to bring Robin Martin on the podcast. During this conversation we discuss topics like:
How she got into yoga.
The decision to become a yoga teacher.
Balancing social media pressure and social media stardom.
Passive flexibility vs active mobility.
Advice for budding yoga teachers.
About Robin I’m Robin Martin, a certified yoga teacher based in Seattle, WA, USA. My practice and my teaching are ever evolving. While vinyasa yoga is my favorite style of yoga to both practice and teach, I have studied many different methods of yoga with numerous master teachers and appreciate the beauty in all styles. I earned my 200 Yoga Alliance certification through Tiffany Cruikshank of Yoga Medicine. Additionally, I have 4 advanced training certifications in shoulder, hip, spine and myofascial release through Yoga Medicine. I am also certified to teach paddleboard yoga.
Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. I’m so excited to have the opportunity to interview Robin Martin. Robin Martin is a yoga teacher that lives in Seattle, Washington. She teaches locally in studios around where she lives. She teaches on Zoom and she also leads international retreats where you can join her. One of them’s coming up in Greece actually. Check her out on her website, RobinMartinyoga.com. And also follow her on Instagram at @RobinMartinyoga. All right, let’s begin. I’m so excited to have this opportunity to speak with Robin Martin and Robin, how are you? How are you doing today?
Robin Martin
I’m doing well. Thanks so much for having me on your pod…..on your Toddcast, if you will.
Todd Mclaughlin
Thank you so much. My wife, when I said I was gonna do a podcast, said you have to do a Toddcast. I couldn’t argue with her. So thank you.
Robin Martin
It’s very cute.
Todd Mclaughlin
Thank you. I appreciate that. And where are you joining us from Robin?
Robin Martin
Seattle, Washington. Northwest Coast USA.
Todd Mclaughlin
Are you born and raised there?
Robin Martin
I actually am. I’m one of the few natives I think of the area. I was born in Seattle. I grew up in Olympia, which is the state capitol. It’s about 90 minutes south of the city. Both of my parents grew up in the city. But my dad got a job for the State Department of Fisheries. And that was located in the Capitol area. So that’s where I grew up. And then I headed right back to Seattle. I went to University of Washington, and I’ve stayed in the area ever since. I travel a lot. I travel all over the world. But Seattle is home.
Todd Mclaughlin
Wonderful. Are you in downtown Seattle?
Robin Martin
Actually, no, I’m on the east side. I did live in the city. For a while after college, I lived on an area called Queen Anne, which is right in the city. And that’s actually where my mom grew up. And then I moved to the east side, which is for those who know the area Bellevue, Washington. It’s on the east side of Lake Washington.
Todd Mclaughlin
Nice.
Robin Martin
I am about 30 minutes outside of the city.
Todd Mclaughlin
Awesome. I’ve never been but my sister used to live there. And she loved it and just always raved about it. I wish I had gone and visited her while she was there.
Robin Martin
Where was she living when she was there?
Todd Mclaughlin
Oh, that’s a great question. You stumped me. I don’t remember the suburb they were in to be honest.
Robin Martin
Yeah. I am always curious.
Todd Mclaughlin
That’s cool. Do you teach yoga in a studio? Or are you teaching more on a retreat basis?
Robin Martin
Oh, I teach all of it. And everywhere. I teach retreats, I teach in several studios in the city, and I teach at home. I have regular zoom classes leftover from the COVID era when they all kind of started but I have a relationship with iHeartMedia. So I teach for those guys a couple days a week and then I have privates that actually come to my home. So yeah, it’s a pretty full and and interesting schedule. And I really like it because it’s such a variety of places, temperatures, vibes, you know, all of that. And traveling, I have taught at lots of festivals and workshops around. I taught in Saudi Arabia in October of this past year. It was a wonderful opportunity to teach at an event that they were hosting there. The Crown Prince was hosting. So yeah, I have a very colorful teaching history and hopefully going forward, it will continue.
Todd Mclaughlin
Yes, that’s amazing how many years have you been teaching?
Robin Martin
I’ve been teaching for about 12 years I think.
Todd Mclaughlin
Cool. Yeah. And how about practicing? When did you start practicing?
Robin Martin
May of the year 2000? So it’ll be it’ll be 23 years in May. Yeah. Hard to believe considering I’m only 24 years old. (laughter)
Todd Mclaughlin
Yes. A miracle. That is incredible, right?
Robin Martin
My mother practiced yoga when she was pregnant with me in utero.
Todd Mclaughlin
Yes.
Robin Martin
Don’t you love that one? That’s like the best yoga answer.
Todd Mclaughlin
Right. I’ve been practicing since in utero. Have you heard the theory that while in utero, we practice every yoga pose that’s ever been created?
Robin Martin
I’ve never heard that. No,
Todd Mclaughlin
I’ve heard someone say that. This idea that 84 number and that there’s 84,000 different yoga poses or Shiva practiced something within the realm of 84 million yoga poses. And that in utero, we actually go through all of those positions before we actually come out. I don’t know how true that could be?
Robin Martin
And, you know, I mean, then as the baby is forming in the uterus, it is changing and moving around and right. Who knows? I don’t know.
Todd Mclaughlin
That’s a good point. I know. It’s kind of fun to think about.
Robin Martin
However, I do have to question that one. Because, like Padmasana for example, Lotus Pose would require a lot of maneuvering to get into. It’s the one where your heels are tucked up by the creases of your hips. So I don’t know. I can’t really imagine that.
Todd Mclaughlin
Yeah, yeah, I think it’s a myth. It’s a fun myth.
Robin Martin
Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean. They’re not gonna be grabbing their foot doing a Dancer Pose.
Todd Mclaughlin
Are you a mom?
Robin Martin
I am.
Todd Mclaughlin
How many children do you have?
Robin Martin
I have two.
Todd Mclaughlin
Nice, awesome. Do you mind me asking how old they are?
Robin Martin
No, I don’t. They’re 16 and 18.
Todd Mclaughlin
Oh, cool. I have a 16 year old and a nine year old.
Robin Martin
Okay.
Todd Mclaughlin
Yeah, is your 16 year old driving?
Robin Martin
Well, I have two daughters. And, and it’s funny, they just didn’t seem to be in any rush to get their driver’s licenses. My 18 year old finally got hers at some point. But she also had the whole issue where she did her driving school during COVID. And so she had to wait till the drivers were available to do her drives. And they were very backlogged. And my younger one is kind of in the same situation, though, she was done with her whole driving school while still 15 And she’s just anxiously waiting to do her drives and she wants to get a driver’s license. My older one just didn’t seem to be in any hurry. And same with my nephew. I was just reading an article just today, oddly about how how kids today don’t have this sense of urgency or drive. I mean, I couldn’t get mine fast enough. I mean, it was like, the day I turned 16 I think was at the DMV getting my driver’s license.
Todd Mclaughlin
100% What would you, if you had to take a stab in the dark, the reason is that kids at age 16 aren’t chomping at the bit the way we were?
Robin Martin
You know, well, I don’t know. I mean, it doesn’t make any sense to me. I know that I lived a bit out in the sticks. And for me, it was freedom to be able to drive. When my daughter and her closest friend drives drives her around so maybe that’s the reason why she’s not in such a hurry. It’s easier to get around now. They can Uber. They’re just closer to everything than I was to anything where I grew up. I can’t really explain it because I think it’s crazy.
Todd Mclaughlin
I hear you. I kind of pushed my son. I was like, when you are 15 you are getting your learner’s on the day. Because you’re gonna want your license when you’re 16. Let’s go.
Robin Martin
Does he have his license?
Todd Mclaughlin
He does. Yeah, he’s cruising. So far. So good. Knock on wood.
Robin Martin
When did he turn 16?
Todd Mclaughlin
July 11. So he’s been going now like eight months already. Yeah.
Robin Martin
Yeah, mine just turned 16 last month, but she’s just waiting to do the drives with the driving school. When when I was 16 we had driver’s ed in high school. I think I had to pay extra for it. But it was like it was something you could do. Right, and like teachers volunteered to do the drives with the students. It’s different.
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It is with great pleasure I can bring to you Judith Hanson Lasater, PhD, PT. Judith has taught yoga around the world since 1971. Judith offers numerous live events, digital courses, and has published ten books. Including Yoga Myths, and her most recent book, Teaching Yoga with Intention.
Judith Hanson Lasater is an American yoga teacher and writer in the San Francisco Bay Area, recognized as one of the leading teachers in the country. She helped to found The California Yoga Teachers Association, the Iyengar Yoga Institute in San Francisco, and Yoga Journal magazine.
During this conversation I have the chance to ask Judith questions about her new book, Teaching Yoga with Intention andthe importance of cultivating non violent communication as a yoga teacher.
Welcome to Native Yoga Toddcast. My name is Todd McLaughlin. I’m so happy you’re here. If you’re a first time listener, welcome. And for those of you that have been with me all along, your support means the world to me. I’m so pleased! I feel that my next guest here does not need an introduction. She is a famous yoga teacher, and I have utmost respect for her. Her name is Judith Hanson Lasater, and you can find her at www.judith.yoga.
Judith Hanson Lasater is a PhD. She’s a Physical Therapist. She’s taught yoga around the world since 1971. She offers numerous live events, digital courses, she’s published 10 books. And today the focus of our conversation is speaking about her most recent book called Teaching Yoga with Intention. So I want to express a huge thank you to Judith because she was so kind and accepting my invitation to be here on this podcast. And without any further ado, let’s get started.
Todd McLaughlin
I am so thrilled to have Dr. Judith Hanson Lasater here today. Judith is a PhD and Physical Therapist and a yoga teacher since 1971. Judith, how are you?
Judith Hanson Lasater
I’m doing well. Thank you very much. I hope the same for you.
Todd McLaughlin
I am really excited about this. I actually couldn’t sleep last night because I was so excited for this.
Judith Hanson Lasater
Oh, tell my children that! Or can you tell my grandchildren that? That they could be equally as excited when I call and talk to them.
Todd McLaughlin
Yeah, you can you can tell them that. I hope they’ll listen to you and appreciate that. Well, this is a great opportunity! I got a chance to read your most recent book called Teaching Yoga with Intention, The Essential Guide to Skillful Hands on Assist and Verbal Communication. I’m really excited to get a chance to talk to you about this today. Before we even go down that track though, I’m curious if you can just tell me a little bit about how and what you’re doing these days? Like what does your yoga practice and teaching like these days?
Judith Hanson Lasater
Well, one of the exciting things is beginning to teach live again. Traditionally yoga courses were taught one on one. And it was BKS Iyengar in the modern era who really began, initiated and created this whole idea of classes. But it’s still live, you can still feel the room. When you teach, you can still make eye contact with each person, if that’s appropriate. And so what I’m finding is this huge thirst, to be in community. To be in Sangha. To be with other people and just their presence. Practicing with you in the room is a nonverbal but very powerful support. And we all need that right now. So that’s what I’m liking. And that’s what’s alive for me. I’m very excited about this new book, because I wrote it during the pandemic. It flowed out of me. And that’s always a good sign for a writer.
Todd McLaughlin
I hear you! I think it’s an amazing book. I enjoyed reading it immensely. I found so many great points. I feel like you really honed in on some of the things that when I think, “how would I explain this to somebody?” And I have a loss of words. You did a great job of really laying out the foundation for healthy communication with us both verbally and if we use the power of touch in our in our teaching. So I think you did an amazing job.
Judith Hanson Lasater
Thank you. But before we go into the book, I really would like to follow, I’m all excited, of course to talk to you about, I’d like to follow my tradition of when I speak from the mat, or from the cushion, or in this place from my office chair, that I speak about what I think is, for us, all of us are listening, a really important part of our lives, which is our practice, I’d like to start with a moment of silence,
Todd McLaughlin
That’d be great.
Judith Hanson Lasater
So I’m going to ring my bell. And what I suggest you do is to sit and sit in front of your sitting bones, which brings your pelvis forward and then brings the pelvis under the spine to be like a pot to support this curvy, winding, fine, normal curve. So the brain in the head can float on the top of it. And that physical alignment will resonate through us energetically as well. And then my suggestion is that during that moment, if you find it interesting, useful and or pleasant, just imagine the very center of your brain geographically from the sides of your head from the top and the bottom and the front of the back, the deep center of the gray and just like a wave moving away from the shore, you stay rooted in that not ringing the bells and about a minute I’ll ring them again.
Todd McLaughlin
Wonderful.
Judith Hanson Lasater
All right, fire away with your questions.
Todd McLaughlin
First of all, I love the visual of wave pulling away from shore. That’s, that’s a really beautiful visual that works with that sensation of trying to put your attention right in the center of the brain. Is that something that has came to you? When a while practicing meditation? What made you think of that?
Judith Hanson Lasater
That’s a good question. It just popped into my consciousness one day, and I actually find that I can do that. With my eyes open. And I do it in conversation. I’ll be doing it a lot through our talk. It’s just a very, it takes you away from thinking. Did you notice that? Yeah. Because I have this word I’ve made up. You know, we all know the word mindfulness. But I really liked the word, body fullness. And when we can have, whenever we have the space that we can become aware of sensation, like the weight of our body on the chair, the floor. The sensations of the breath, is when we can cultivate our attention to be aware of the sensation of the moment. We step out of thought, because it’s we stepped from that space into into the present, into the present moment because sensation only occurs in the present moment. You can remember that yesterday you stubbed your toe and it hurt, but you can’t recreate that sensation in the present. So sensation lives in the moment. And when we put our awareness on the body, bodily sensation, we must then not be dancing with thought.
So here’s another technique that arose in me. And it was this idea of the tongue. So let’s try this for a second. Go back to the center of your brain.
And release your tongue from its roots, and let it lie flat in the mouth. Now, when I do that, that deepens the silence for me. Did you find that?
Todd McLaughlin
Yeah, to bring the attention to it or to even just put it right into the mouth, but then try to actually get my tongue to relax? That’s a good one.
Judith Hanson Lasater
No, no, don’t try.
Todd McLaughlin
Don’t try?
Judith Hanson Lasater
Invite. Invite. So here’s what I’ve reasoned out about that is the tongue is not just an organ of digestion, a muscle. It’s also an organ of speech. And so it’s neurologically connected to the speech centers. So we have parts of our brain that are very connected with speech and writing. And thinking because we think in words, have you ever seen a little kid? Or maybe you did this yourself? I remember doing it. When I was learning to write. Sometimes my tongue would be outside my mouth or writing the letter? Yeah, yeah. Because it’s the tongue, you have motor skills. Yeah, babies, infants have to learn how to swallow. They have to learn to swallow. Meaning that with the tongue, and how they nurse and all of that. So I think that when we relax the tongue, and there is some evidence to this, we affect the neural pathways to the brain. And so when I combined, for me, the center of the brain, release the top. Let the heart, expand to its truth. Then descend to the pelvis and feel the pulse of life of being in the pelvis. Thank you, we are then radically present in the being of the body, which lives in the moment. Did you find anything of that in this moment?
Todd McLaughlin
I did! Two things I love right off the bat is the language you used around, don’t try….. instead invite. That’s amazing. That’s a big shift. And then I started thinking, Well, we really don’t have anything to talk about now. Because you got to the heart of it all already.
Judith Hanson Lasater
All will be well.
Todd McLaughlin
You got to the heart of the matter right off the bat.
Judith Hanson Lasater
Can I tell you a story about that?
Todd McLaughlin
Yes, please.
Judith Hanson Lasater
So my second time that I went to Russia, I think I went the first time in ’89. When the wall was coming down, and then again in ’91. And the first time I went, there were just a couple of, two or three Americans there. But then there were a larger group that went and we were in a big cafeteria in one of the big hotels, where we were all staying and then a group of Russian yoga teachers came walking towards us. They came in, you know, and I because I’d been there before. Got up, everyone was like, what did we do what we do? And so I got up and walked towards them. And pretty soon other people started coming and we started introducing ourselves and I remember distinctly talking to a woman and I was doing this southern girl, chatty, chatty. Your city is beautiful, I got it that you know, whatever. And she reached over and she grabbed me by the upper arm. And she leaned into me and she said, No, let us talk a real thing. I love that. That’s what you, that’s what you and I are about I think right now.
Todd McLaughlin
Yeah. Let’s get right to the to the heart of it. That’s amazing. Judith. Well, in your book, you mentioned the importance of language. And you mapped it into like three different stages. Can you please define and explain the three levels or stages of learning about language and the teaching of yoga?
Judith Hanson Lasater
Would you prompt me on that, please?
Todd McLaughlin
I will. Because the first one is how you talked about how first as a yoga teacher, we transfer info “about the pose.” Like the first level of conversation is kind of like, okay, Triangle Pose. And let me just convey some words to help you get from point A to point B.
Judith Hanson Lasater
Yeah, it’s just information. Yeah, it’s like, it’s technique, which is very important, because technique affects energy and organs and state of mind, the nervous system, and we’re very complex. In fact, you know, years ago, people used to say, body, and mind and body were completely separate. That was the western view. And then it started hyphenating, that term. MInd-body. Interesting. You know, and then there was a period, you’d see it written as one word, I see it a lot. Now mindbody is one word. So I’ve made up a word, which is mody. Mody. Because the body and the mind on are so one.
Todd McLaughlin
Yeah, that’s a great word.
Judith Hanson Lasater
Mody. So yeah, I mean, we should get it, we should get it in the dictionary, another word I made up, it’s not just multi-tasking, it is hyper-tasking. So you know, if there, so I want uni-tasking to be in the dictionary. And we, this spiritual practice asked the question, “Can we do one thing at a time?” And usually, the answer is no way Jose. So, yes, the first part of communication is, of course nonverbal. But if we get past that, we’re giving them information. Because if someone comes in and says, teach me how to do yoga, and we just say, do Triangle Pose, we need to tell them turn the left foot in the right foot out, stretch the arm, etc. But that’s not our most important job. So number two?
Todd McLaughlin
The beginning of the personalization of instructions.
Judith Hanson Lasater
Yeah, so a leader in yoga is someone who leads the class. I’ve even seen people turn their back and just do their practice, and people follow them. Which surprises me, so you’re leading. But then teaching begins When you can say to this person, please put your feet wider apart into this next person, would you bring them closer together, when there’s an individuation, of how we can support each pupil expressing the beauty of their Trikonasana in this moment. In ways that keep them safe, and open their heart and mind the same time and bring them into their body into their own self. So that’s a deeper, that’s a real teacher. The teacher sees both the difference and the absolute unity among all people, and to help them help the students. What’s the third one?
Todd McLaughlin
I think you’re correct! You answered that really well, thank you. That when the teacher is able to communicate in such a way that their words evoke, or conjure the pose from the student, or how the student can discover the pose already exists within them. And I love how you wrote as an ancient archetype. That’s so cool. Like the thought of…..
Judith Hanson Lasater
A pyramid. Which is a three dimensional triangle. Yeah, so that presupposes the understanding that we could never teach anybody anything. We can only create an environment in which people choose to learn.
So the question is, how are we going to create that environment with our language? So I make intentional choices. I don’t say good or bad, right or wrong. Oh, I might say to a student, I really liked the way your knee is in that pose, or I’m concerned about placement of your knee, would you try this and see what you think how it feels to you. So because if I come, you know, stomping in the class, and say, do this, do this, do this. And then I learned something and I wanted to change my mind, I’ve painted myself in a corner. So what I want to teach in that part of the of the pose is twofold. The second stage, is like I want to teach them technique in a way that underscores trusting that they trust themselves. First, I want to use my words in a class, to create an environment in which people are trusting themselves and at the same time they’re willing to try something new. And I’m not there to impose the pose to fit them in a cookie cutter. So I like to say to my students, I don’t want to teach you rules, I want to teach you principles. Because that’s a bigger, bigger idea. There are anatomical principles about how the pelvis can move over the femoral heads, in Trikonasana that will relieve the lower back and create a sense of ease and dynamism at the same time. You know that in Patanjali’s yoga sutra, chapter two verse 46, Sthira Sukham Asanam. It’s a definition of Asana. So abiding in ease is asana. So an Asana is that which we can be in which we can be still, and at ease. And it’s really ironic, we think of as movements that are difficult.
Todd McLaughlin
Good point!
Judith Hanson Lasater
How can I create an environment in which people find their Trikonasana? And often it’s not airy fairy? I mean, there are boundaries, there are alignment principle. You could be, you know, hyperextending your knee or whatever, that guidance. But the asana, Todd, the asana isn’t the yoga. It’s the residue, that the asana leaves in the nervous system that is the yoga. Because Yoga is not just, you know, to paint with a broad brush, Asana, Pranayama, meditation. Those point to the potential of presence, which is the state of yoga. So we confuse them. People say I am going to do yoga, like, what? When are we all going to say I’m going to go in my own? Right? And bring that into the world. And bring that. That state of presence. Compassion.
Todd McLaughlin
Great point, Judith. Was there a point in your transformation through your yoga journey where maybe you were practicing a yoga pose and thinking about that yoga sutra, where it’s mentioning that the asana should be stable and comfortable. And thinking, “how in the world could this be comfortable?” I’m in this really like, uncomfortable position right now. And has that informed your teaching and evolution of your practice over the years?
Judith Hanson Lasater
Yes, but it wasn’t a thought. It was an experience, which I’m happy to share with you. So I was taking a class from another teacher. And I was doing what it at that time, for me was my favorite pose, which was Paschimottanasana, which is just sitting on the floor, leg straight and bending forward. Which I think is the hardest forward bend because there’s nowhere to hide. Like, if you’ve bend one knee, if you’ve bend one day like Janusirsana, you can cheat all over the place. But you cannot cheat in Paschimottanasana. It’s you and your hamstrings baby that it is no getting away from it. And it’s also true I think in Urdhva Dhanurasana, and it’s the most difficult backbend. Because when you’re doing one side, Raja Kapotasana, or you’re doing one side of another posture, there is a way to work off to the one side of something in there. Alright, so that was my favorite pose. And I was I like to say I had my hamstrings surgically removed at birth. I just felt like for a long time, and I’m, you know, just sort of naturally a little loose. And so it’s just flat down, you know, forehead on the shins. I mean, I felt a little bit of stretch. But not much, you know, I was pretty comfortable there. And my mind was spinning like what are we going to how long are we gonna be here? What’s happening with that other person doing what I’m going to have for lunch after class, you know, the normal, useless brain chatter. And then there was experience and I want to treat this story with humility, gratitude, and wonder. And I had the sense that something just kind of flew out of me. And I still felt the stretch but I wasn’t doing anything. And I just stayed there. It wasn’t like I even stayed. It was like, there was no deep reason to move. There was no discomfort, there was no agitation. I just stayed there. And finally the teacher said, come up, and I didn’t come up. Because I didn’t know what that meant. Literally, it was so bizarre. He said, come up, and I’m like, what does that mean? Because he was, it would be as if I were saying to you stop jumping up and down. Yeah. And you know what? I’m not jumping. Yeah. So he said, stop doing the pose. And I’m like, what is he talking about? And then this little ego stuck it’s head out behind the tree and my consciousness and said, Wow, that was cool. I started, you know, then it shifted again. But I thought to myself afterwards, well, I’d finally practiced one pose. It was my first pose, you know, it was years into my practice, but…. So, does that answer your question does?
Todd McLaughlin
Yes. Perfectly. Since I’ve read your book, I’ve been extra thoughtful about my speech and my touch, in a good way. In a really good way. Like, maybe I was just on autopilot for a little bit. I kind of forgot how important it is. And you made mention, in your book, this is quoting you “we speak to manipulate the world around us” end quote. Can you explain that? It makes sense to me. It makes sense to me, but love it. I thought it was actually kind of profound when I heard that. We speak to manipulate the world around us. I might think, “I’m not trying to manipulate the world.” I’m just getting through the world here. So I love that sentence.
Judith Hanson Lasater
Okay. So first, let’s look at the word manipulate, because that has a negative connotation. But if we’re truthful, Todd, you are manipulating the world around you all day long. You go for a run, you’re manipulating your consciousness, right? Go for a run, you smoke a funny cigarette, you smoke a real cigarette. Not that you do these things. You have coffee, you want your caffeine which manipulates your nervous system. You do your Pranayama or your yoga. You stand on your head, all this manipulate your nervous system. You go to sleep and that manipulates your nervous system. We’re always seeking homeostasis. In fact, you are choosing, you know, when you eat, you feel different. You manipulate your nervous system. That’s what human beings do. And there are two kinds of manipulation. There’s the unconscious one and the conscious one. And so to me, that’s what yoga is about is paying attention to how doing Savasana. Savasana manipulates your nervous. Does it not?
Todd McLaughlin
It does.
Judith Hanson Lasater
Okay, so that’s a conscious manipulation. So the question is not, should I not manipulate, it’s am I doing it consciously, to live my highest values. And that’s what yoga makes us aware of. And this speech that I’ve that I’ve studied this technique of nonviolent communication has radically changed my relationship, in my interaction with my children as they were growing up, and in intimate relationships and in teaching.
And the best way we can do that. Well, let me let me let me back up a second.
Every time I go to teach, whether it’s online or in person. The first thing I do is have the one minute. And during that one minute I connect with myself. This is the first rule of teaching. When I sit there in front of you today or in class. The first thing I do is I ask myself this question. What is alive in me right now? Am I anxious? Am I happy? Am I sleepy? Am I irritated by the discussion I just had with someone? It doesn’t really matter what is arising in me but when I get connected with that. Oh right now I’m tired or right now I’m excited. Right now I’m worried about one of my children. It was always one of the three was at the top of the worry list, you know, over the years. Whatever, whatever is arising in me when I notice it. That when I bring it into the light. It connects me with the present moment. And I go, Ah, yes, I’m feeling excited. Ah, I don’t judge it. I don’t try to make it different. I don’t try to fix it. I just notice it. Because, and name it to myself. Right now I’m sad. Because my uncle died. I’m just sad right now. Okay. That’s what’s alive in me, then I’m firmly present. Radically present I call it because we’re very rarely there. So the next thing I want to do is I want to be able to see you. And I can’t see you and or connect with you if I’m not connected with myself. So when I see you, and it’s really tricky, because I’ve taught for 51 years. I have students who’ve been with me for 45 years.
Todd McLaughlin
Wow, that is amazing!
Judith Hanson Lasater
You know everything about them. You know them before they met their husband, before they got married, when they got divorced, and they had these kids, and they had this surgery, then this. And so it blurs in a way, your objectivity. So when I go to teach somewhere where I don’t know, most of the people, I sometimes feel that my best teaching. Because I don’t see my friend. I see a human being, you know what I’m saying? You may know what I am saying. So that. Yeah, so the second part of this is I want to see the person standing in front of me. They may have been there for many weeks, or never again, but can I be present with that person in this moment?
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Ever wonder if there is more to yoga than yoga postures? Join my guest Eric Shaw for a discussion around his new book called Sacred Thread: A Comprehensive Yoga Timeline: 2000 Events that Shaped Yoga History. Eric’s teachings and passions have been influenced significantly by his teachers, in particular Shandor Remete and Rod Stryker. You can visit Eric on his website at prasanayoga.com and you can purchase a copy of Eric’s new book on Amazon here.
During this conversation we discussed:
the history and philosophy of yoga
the timeline associated with modern yoga
the origins of yoga in relation to the archeological findings at Mohenjo-daro
Eric’s experience with Iyengar yoga
What yoga was like on the West Coast of USA during its peak
Yoga as a global realization vs. a cultural specific identity
and quite a few more topics.
You can listen to the full podcast episode with Eric Shaw on our podcast site here.
Todd McLaughlin
I am so excited to have the opportunity to join in conversation with Eric Shaw today. Please find him on his website, prasanayoga.com. You can click the link in the description to easily access his work. He is the author of a book called BKS Iyengar and the Making of Modern Yoga. And he has also just released a new book called Sacred Thread: A Comprehensive Yoga Timeline: 2000 Events That Shaped Yoga History.
Eric Shaw
Yeah, yes.
TM
Thank you, Eric. And I’m so happy to have this chance to speak with you. I love yoga philosophy. And you’ve done a lot study. And on that note, can you fill me and the listener in….have you gotten your doctorate degree yoga studies?
ES
No, I’ve done a lot of a lot of academic work. I started a doctoral program in 2004, finished my studies in 2011 and pretty much got the knowledge base that I desired at that time. I was able to parlay that into practical purposes. It’s kind of like I feel like it’s something I want to do that is like climbing Mount Everest.
But yeah, I didn’t get it done at that point in my life. I could talk all day about why it didn’t happen. Yet I did get a master’s degree out of it and I got a knowledge base. It was quite useful for me for writing work and lecturing work in the yoga world.
TM
Nice. Well, when you had to write a thesis for your masters, what did you base your thesis on?
ES
I based it on the life of BKS Iyengar. I did a very deep study of him. Partly because his followers were so prominent in the Bay Area where I was working in San Francisco. And because that system, according to my training was so alien to me. I was so confronted by it. Iyengar’s system, as everyone knows who studied it, it’s arguably the most comprehensive yoga system out there. You know, unless you went to some ancient system, perhaps as far as the modern systems go, it’s complexity, it’s philosophy, it’s understanding the body and the way that it’s set up structurally to function. The Iyengar view of function in yoga is very clear and vastly articulated. So the people who teach it, have a pedagogy, a pedagogical style, a teaching style, which is strangely aggressive. That’s to say, all those things were quite confronting to me when I arrived in the Bay Area in 2004. After training in Kripalu Yoga and other forms of yoga, which were much more meditative, and much more I thought holistic based. Pranayama based in spiritual aims. Here I was faced with this very physical culturalist yoga, which some people from that tradition might argue with me as characterizing it that way. But to me, it was so body centric and so awesomeness centric. That I think it’s kind of strange to say in the year 2022, because yoga has become more and more and more body centric. I mean, it’s been a processes happening for hundreds of years. But it seems like it’s only been accelerated. It’s come into the American context. But for me, that was difficult. And part of my working that out, to write this mono focal paper on my anger.
TM
Wow! Let me back up so I can get a timeline of your history of practice. When did you start practicing yoga? What was your first introduction to the yoga world?
ES
It’s kind of an interesting, funny story, given my history. My parents were ministers. And they were very open minded liberal ministers. They come from the west coast. So it’s very much different from the south where I’m living now. Yeah, yeah. Me talking about Christianity in this part of the world. But where I came from, they were liberals, they were, you know, anti war protesters. They were raging leftist. So I did get a political orientation in my Christian experience, but it wasn’t a right wing one, it was a radical left wing. So that was my background. And so there was a certain openness there to intellectuality at all levels. So when I told my parents I was an atheist, they didn’t bat an eye. When I told my parents that I was into Eastern traditions and studying Buddhism and meditation, they didn’t bat an eye, you know. So that became my practice very early on in my early 20s, and very much a life saving practice, because my mind was kind of out of control. And it may still sound that way. But meditation helped me control my life. And I dove right into meditation and have maintained that practice to this very day.
TM
Got it.
ES
So like, I did some early investigation in Buddhist traditions. And it wasn’t till the early 90s that I joined Siddha Yoga, which is the Hindu tradition, I actually did that in the midst of a time I was studying Christianity and a Religious Studies degree in many Minneapolis, Minnesota. But that kind of opened the Hindu world to me a little bit. And then when I started practicing Hatha Yoga in 2000, then I started to investigate Hinduism more properly and understand how different it was from the Buddhist tradition. How much richer, how much more embracing of the human experience and all of its aspects and even culture in all of its aspects. And so it was incredibly compelling to me, given my background and it pretty much became a gestalt experience for me, I just dove right into it.
TM
Wow. You made mention of the appreciation for Iyengar tradition and Iyengar’s guru being Krishnamacharya. Did you investigate other practices with any other teachers under that lineage?
ES
Yeah, actually with quite a few. I mean, the Bay Area, as I said, was a hotbed of strong Iyengar teachers. So it was easy to study with strong teachers who not only came to town to teach, but who were residents there. So my chief preceptor was Tony Briggs and he had a relationship to Shandor Remete, who was my primary teacher. A teacher I’d met actually was still in Portland, Oregon and before 2004 started studying with Matt Hewish at the time, who was a primary follower of Shandor. Strange to talk about Shandor in the Iyengar context, because few people even know that he studied with Iyengar. He actually stayed with him for 20 years, extremely long time and he was actually the president of the Iyengar Federation in Australia. But he made a jump to embrace of martial arts and Bharatanatyam yoga, or rather Indian dance and he integrated into practices that he claimed to have learned at the Chidambaram temple in India into a new form that he called Shadow yoga. He’s continued to evolve his forms and change the names of them, but I learned from him and his teaching was profound and very vinyasa based, very movement based. But he was an Iyengar teacher. And then Tony. Tony had worked with Shandor, or so that was my connection with Tony. But Tony was a classic Iyengar teacher. I mean, he was gonna put you in a pose and hold you there and break it down into all its constituent parts in which muscles are engaged, and released and yada, yada, yada. So that training and another with Ramadan Patel and other big names in the Bay Area helped me understand asana and the alignment perspective, which I feel is, is very, very important. I mean, it’s at so many levels. But then I also worked with Paul Grilley, who was into kind of destroying the whole alignment concept. So I got a lot of a lot of input around yogic philosophy and yoga practice in those years that are invaluable.
TM
Amazing, just to touch upon what you just mentioned, I’ve enjoyed watching Paul Grilley’s work around anatomy and yin yoga, can you explain how Paul’s philosophy shatter that existing idea of alignment that you were studying? Can you tell me what that means? Or what that sounds like?
ES
Yeah, yeah. And it’s a good story. I think for anybody who wants to be a serious practitioner of yoga, I think it’s important to understand alignment principles, particularly from the Iyengar perspective, but it’s also very important to understand their limits. And Paul has done the spade work, he’s done the deep work in defining those limits. And I’m just shocked that so few people know his work, because it’s utterly revolutionary. Even if you don’t have Iyengar as a conversation partner for it. So Paul Grilley, you know, he’s ostensibly known for his work in yin yoga. And that’s how I first understood him and met him in yoga was my actually my teaching practice early on, because he was one of the first major teachers I met in Portland, Oregon. I wrote a small profile for him for a local yoga magazine, and we got to be friends. Then he was in an early video company making videos on yoga, you know, and when DVD still existed. A group of people there in San Francisco, who I met and hung out with, and then Paul was a part of that group, and he came down to do yoga videos there. And so he wrote, when I was there in San Francisco, and he recorded his Yoga Anatomy DVD, in which he distills all of his knowledge around bony limits in the body. So it’s the skeletal structure of the body, which determines which poses you can get and in which you can’t. And that’s, I know, that’s a very black and white statement. But it’s actually quite true that the soft tissue, of course, creates limits that we can push through in the attempt to attain any given Asana. And that’s what Iyengar practices are based on. That there is a limitless potential to achieve anything in yoga. Paul Grilley’s work debunked that theory in a way showing that bone structure does create limitation as to how far we can push into a posture. What he really determined and demonstrated directly in that DVD by comparing different human bodies, that the length of your bones, the orientation of the bones, in a given joint, the way it spirals out of that joint, the way it engages with the next joint in the chain determines whether or not any given poses even available. And that’s for a yoga teacher, who is attempting to guide students of different shapes and sizes into positions, proposes knowledge that is absolutely critical. Particularly if you’ve been trained in Iyengar yoga, because it does not integrate that knowledge. In fact, it’s kind of philosophically opposed to it.
Listen to the full episode with Eric Shaw for free on our podcast site here.
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